Dame Alison Rose on creating a purpose-driven bank (NatWest)

I stumbled upon a podcast the other day. It intrigued me as it's all about building a blueprint for a better business and, in episode 2, the host - Charles Wookey (nothing to do with Star Wars) - had managed to catch the head of NatWest Group, Dame Alison Rose, about how to create a purpose-driven bank. It's well worth a listen (click here) but, if you cannot be bothered with podcasts, here is the transcript:

Charles Wookey:

Welcome to the Blueprint for Better Business Podcast hosted by me, Charles Wookey. 11 years ago I co-founded the charity A Blueprint for Better Business with the aim of helping create a better society through better business. I ran it for 10 years, working mostly with leaders of large companies who, for their own reasons, have sought to transform their businesses to become purpose-led.

In this series, we are speaking to some of these leaders and change makers and explore the realities of creating purpose-led businesses. This is always both a personal and organizational challenge, so the conversations explore both the personal motivation of these leaders as well as what they've done and learned in their leadership roles. In different ways, they're all pioneers have a way of thinking and acting, which releases the latent potential of people and puts business at the service of creating a better world. But the stories are always personal and different.

My successor, Sarah Gillard, and I have found them all inspiring and we hope you do too. If you enjoy this podcast, please take the time to leave a review. It helps others to find it. Thank you.

Today I'm delighted to be speaking to Dame Alison Rose. In 2019, Alison became chief executive of NatWest Group, the first woman to lead a major UK lender, and prior to that she led government investigations into the representation of women in business, a report known as the Rose Report. I wanted to talk to Alison because she has committed NatWest Group as a bank to becoming a purpose-led business and has done that through her leadership as CEO and has used Blueprint's thinking in the process as she takes the bank on this journey.

Alison, thank you so much and first of all, many, many congratulations on becoming a Dame. How does it feel to be a Dame?

Dame Alison Rose:

Very surreal, but thank you very much. Yeah, it's a huge privilege.

Charles Wookey:

Well, I must say, given all that you've done at the Group and also your work with female entrepreneurship, which I know was one of the things that was mentioned in the citation, it's really great to see that being recognized and the bank generally too.

So what I'd like to do, Alison, is to explore both a little bit about you as a person and why you've done what you've done and what really motivates you to do that, and then think a bit about your work at NatWest and the journey that you are on leading a purpose-led bank and why you've done that. Because as you know, in Blueprint's thinking, it's always both a personal and an organizational challenge. These things go together. So I'd like to start, if I may, with a pretty simple question, really. Why do you do what you do?

Dame Alison Rose:

Great question. Well, I started out in banking really not so much because I wanted to be a banker, but for what a career could offer me. And I think certainly when you start out, nobody really knows what you want to do. You learn as you go. I wanted something that was intellectually stimulating, that was fast-paced, that would give me the opportunity to constantly learn and develop. And I think that's been true of my career the way through. I'm probably learning more now than I did when I started. And so that was really how I got into banking.

And then I think now doing what I do as the CEO of the organization, it's the opportunity to put the bank on a path which will drive long-term value. I think one of the advantages of having a career like mine is you can see the impact you have on people's lives and the broader impact that you can have. And so the chance for me to be CEO was then to actually set the strategy to find the impact and create long-term value. And I think these roles are ones that offer you stewardship of an organization to then pass on to the next person. And so it's about developing talent, it's about developing the business, it's about making a contribution broader that these big companies can do.

Charles Wookey:

And unusually actually, in terms of your own career, if one looks at the chief executives of many other large organizations, you started as a graduate trainee in the bank that you are now the CEO of.

Dame Alison Rose:

Yeah.

Charles Wookey:

Actually, then with the same name that it now has reacquired.

Dame Alison Rose:

Yeah.

Charles Wookey:

So I mean-

Dame Alison Rose:

That's unusual.

Charles Wookey:

So you've been there right through the vicissitudes of the bank's history over that period of time. So Allison, what gives you most joy in what you do now? What are the things you really look forward to in the diary?

Dame Alison Rose:

Oh gosh. The things I always look forward to are time spent with customers and time spent with colleagues. I mean, that's sort of overly simplistic, but the great joy is the impact that you can have. And gosh, spending time with entrepreneurs, they're the most inspiring people you could come across. So spending time with people who are building businesses, making a contribution, meeting with customers and colleagues, our graduates, our apprentices, or going into schools and talking about careers. And anything to do with essentially people and business and how I can help and learning firsthand what's going on is the things that give me great joy.

When I have weeks where maybe I'm doing less fun things, I always make sure my diary the next week is full of the fun things and being with customers and being with my colleagues. And you always come away with ideas and solutions and problems to solve, which is what I love doing.

Charles Wookey:

Lovely. Well, let's move on to talk about the bank and your work at the bank. So you became chief executive at the beginning of November 2019, but as we just discussed, having had a whole career at the bank before then. And quite soon after that, and just before COVID, you announced a new purpose for the bank and set the bank on this purpose-led trajectory. Why did you do that?

Dame Alison Rose:

Well look, I truly believe, and it's a core part of my belief system, that if you are going to lead an organization and create an organization that has value over the long-term, it has to be purpose-led. No organization deserves to exist... NatWest, Royal Bank of Scotland, 300 year old institution, but we have no right to exist tomorrow unless we are creating value for all of our stakeholders, which are our customers, our communities, our colleagues, and our shareholders. And I think for me it was very important that we set that path, that we were committed to creating long-term value for all stakeholders. And that really underpins the purpose, and I think that defines both ethoses, me as a leader, but the value that the bank can have.

And we are intimately involved in people's lives and communities and that comes with a degree of care that you have to exercise when you do that. If you make bad decisions, you can have a long-term impact on people's lives and therefore you have to make good decisions. And I think you have to think for the long-term. And so for me, it was a core part of our strategy. Purpose is our strategy. It's not a marketing line. It defines who we are and what we do and what decisions we will make. And therefore, I hope it will mean that this organization is creating value for people over the long term, which means we have a reason to exist.

Charles Wookey:

I remember being involved before we met, so this was in 2009, and helping organize a seminar at Schroders Bank with a number of City leaders. RBS weren't there, but a number of the others were. And I remember the chairman of one of the banks saying, "Look, I'll tell you what we've all done. We've all gone around asking two questions. Is it legal and is it profitable? And if it's both, that's what we've all gone and done." And he said, "That's actually partly why we've ended up where we are now." Do you recognize that characterization of the mentality of the banking system at the time of the financial crisis?

Dame Alison Rose:

Yeah, very much so. I mean, we were a very different bank as well. I think the further you get away from understanding your customers and the more you become singular in just profit making, then I think it leads to short-term decision making.

Charles Wookey:

Right.

Dame Alison Rose:

And I think running big organizations, it's more complex than that. I describe it internally as you have to be an "And" organization. We have to make profits and add value to our customers and add value to our communities and create value for our colleagues. And that short-termism and pursuit of profit at all means it will only ever end badly if you are really committed to creating value for the long term.

Charles Wookey:

Yeah. So there you, you're chief executive and you set the bank on this course of becoming purpose-led as an organization. So what did you do? What did you do differently?

Dame Alison Rose:

Well, lots of things. We made it strategic. We were very clear at defining what we wanted to do. Our purpose is very clear. We are there to create value and potential for people, families, and businesses for the long term, for all of our stakeholders. So we defined it. We were very clear and we worked with all of our colleagues to define it. So it wasn't something that a group of consultants in a boardroom came up with, it was really generated by our colleagues. And then we focused on... So if you are saying you in a drive for the long term, it makes very different decision making. So we've embedded it in all of our decision making. We've made it part of our board strategy and all the things that we do. And it's in all the important things like remuneration and targets and all those good things.

But we also focused on, we wanted to say, "How are we going to create value much more broadly and bring it to life and articulate it?" We said there were three focus areas where, beyond banking, we have a role that we can play and a legitimate role to play. We focused on enterprise, entrepreneurs, with a particular focus on female entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs are the lifeblood of any thriving economy and probably need the most support. So supporting entrepreneurs and enterprise was one of our key focus areas. And as a leading bank supporting entrepreneurs, we have legitimacy to do that. Financial education and learning both for our own colleagues, but more broadly, helping the next generation of people build financial confidence. I mean, a really shocking statistic is 80% of young people do not feel financially confident, and therefore that lack of confidence will affect their ability to fulfill their dreams and aspirations. So focus on education.

The climate challenge is the biggest challenge generationally we will face globally and frankly, where the money goes makes a difference. So playing a leading role in helping manage the climate transition and climate change, and now the climate emergency, was the other focus area. We said those are those three focus areas, and then we embedded purpose into everything we do, into the DNA of the firm, into everything that our colleagues do. And like any strategy, we set frameworks, we set processes, we used Blueprint for a Better Business to help define how we would be able to measure that. And then that underpins our whole strategy that we launched to the market in February 2020.

Charles Wookey:

And it's, I think, very striking to see, to my mind, having a company be on that journey and your colleagues. One of the things that really struck me was the determination both for the bank to do something serious with this so that it really meant something and changed how the organization saw itself and what it did, but also how it did it. So to what extent was setting those three strategic intents of becoming purpose led, you characterized them. Did that sit alongside a desire to shift the culture within the organization? To what extent did you see becoming purpose led as changing the way people behave?

Dame Alison Rose:

The focus areas were a way in which we could articulate purpose as beyond banking to really think about relationships. I think one of the great things about my colleagues is 99.9% of people come to work every day to do a good job. And everybody, I think in any role, wants to feel that they're adding value and contribution more broadly than just coming to work every day. And so I think it was both an element of the culture within the bank, which is a really strong part of the culture, but also I think part of future generations as well. It's not just about work, it's about what impact you are having on the world around you and the things that matter to you. So there's a huge part of the culture of the organization, but more broadly the contribution people want to make and giving them not so much permission, but the ability to see that contribution.

The focus areas where we really felt that we could make a difference to people, and a lot of that work was going on, particularly on education. The bank has a huge track record in education. We've had a program called Money Sense, which goes into school and teaches kids about pocket money, and that's been running for decades. But it was really bringing that in into that is as important. Our role in communities is as important. The education of our colleagues is as important as the support of our customers, as creating value for shareholders. And it was really bringing legitimacy to a lot of good things, but also prioritizing them and saying, "This matters."

Charles Wookey:

Okay. So that's a very striking way of thinking about it, which is legitimating things that are already happening with the organization and recognizing and saying, "This is absolutely a core part of what we should be doing and want to do more of," rather than sort of extras on the side.

So there's another aspect of this, which I know we've spoken about before, but I'd be interested in your reflections at this point because you've been on this journey now as a bank for pretty much three years, where at the beginning it has to have the shared understanding and commitment with the CEO and the leadership team for this kind of shift to happen. But then it doesn't live by that. It lives by what happens in the middle, and the extent to which actually middle leaders in an organization feel collectively empowered, a shared sense of ownership, a capacity to deliver this, and a desire to commit to it because they can see that it's real and that they're being enabled to make it real within the unit that they're running. How are you doing on that? How do you think about that really crucial challenge which you face and all CEOs of large businesses face about how you empower people in the middle?

Dame Alison Rose:

Yeah, I mean, it's vital. Strategy is only a strategy... It doesn't work unless the culture and the organization and the leaders really deliver on it. So I think very much as I said, on an individual level, I think people want to have more meaning and purpose in their and their contribution, but it's really about creating the conditions in which people can thrive, that they can really feel that they can contribute to purpose. And that purpose is something that means something to them and something that is visible in their everyday job.

So when I talk about purpose being strategic, it sits right, in as I described, the scorecard of the organization. So when people are being measured, they're being measured on purpose. All of our employee surveys talk about how they feel as a purpose organization. Every board paper where we are making decisions and executive papers talking about, "Is this a purposeful decision? Have we tested it"? We ran a lot of workshops around purpose dilemmas, and I often describe it as saying, "Being purposeful is not about the easy decisions, it's about the tough decisions." It's about those trade-offs. You're trading off short term, long term, medium term, the balance of, "Is this good for the shareholder and good for the customers and good for the communities?" Not one versus the other. So it's really building that in.

A good way that we try to bring it to life as well as we updated our values and really aligned our values to our purpose. What are our values that drive the organization? And again, we listened to over 10,000 of our colleagues and we had a set of values in the organization and said, "We want to really bring them up to date and define what our values are for the future and aligned with our purpose. What do you think they should be?" And that was a conversation that happened with our middle layer, with our junior layer, with the thought leaders in our organization.

So it's getting the whole bank to think as one and contribute and be listened to, and then embedding it in all of the frameworks and the processes and the measures and creating the environment where people can say, "I don't agree with this," or, "I do agree with this," or, "That's a purposeful decision," or it's not, and showcasing that so people can learn and educate. We're only, as you said, three years, three, four years into our journey. That's very early and it will take many years to fully embed, but is making a lot of progress. And it's those measures that really bring it to life.

Charles Wookey:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, one of the things that struck me, again, from just accompanying you and the bank over that time is, in a perverse way, it struck me that maybe COVID helped because you launched the purpose and then a month later, suddenly the bank and the whole of society is plunged into this massive series of challenges, which actually revealed a lot about the deep culture and instincts of people and of organizations in terms of what they put first and what they valued.

And what struck me, I'm sure struck you, is a lot of companies, including your own, actually put a very strong emphasis on looking after people, looking after customers and colleagues, and prioritizing in a way that, in the bank's case, seemed to really match with the declarations that you'd made around what the bank wanted to become. Well, do you think that's true? I mean, is that a fair description?

Dame Alison Rose:

Yeah, I mean, I think we often talked about purpose was really a guiding light. It helped define a path. Frankly, we were all dealing with something that we'd never dealt with before, and I think having that purpose framework and decision making was incredibly powerful. I talked about empowering people, allowing them to thrive, giving people the mandate to do that and make those decisions made the decision making very easy. I mean, a great example as we turned our headquarters, our big head office in Scotland, into a food bank. And that came from one of my colleagues who literally emailed me and said, "Look, our buildings are empty. We have all these partnerships in place already with Trussell Trust or Social Bite. There's a great need. Why don't we do this?" It's like, "That's a great purposeful thing to do. Yes, why don't we?" And we mobilized behind it, and we became the largest food bank in Scotland.

And then one of our partners, BaxterStorey, came in and said, "Can we use your kitchens?" And then they came in and cooked food and delivered food which went to the NHS hospitals. And then we turned one of our buildings over to be a vaccination center. And then with the Ukrainian crisis, another building turned over to be a welcome center for Ukrainian refugees. Those things were really guided by purpose. They were very clear around, we're an organization that cares about long-term value for customers in communities. Those were valid questions and decisions to make, and therefore it was a very strong guiding light and path for us as we navigated COVID.

Charles Wookey:

And now we're out... Well, we're not out of COVID. It's an endemic rather than a pandemic, so we're living with COVID. But the environment of course has changed in other ways now too. I mean, the bank is sitting there with interest rates that have risen, and therefore profitability of the bank, just by nature, that change has also changed as it does for the other banks as well.

Is there a risk that all this purpose stuff gets associated with a hard times of COVID and as you move into a different economic environment... Well, it's not an easy one, of course, with the cost of living crisis, I mean, this is hard, if not harder than ever, that this gets left behind? Or do you think that what you are doing with your team, and as you've described, this becoming really embedded in the reflexes of the organization, will be sustained?

Purpose is not a shiny new thing anymore. In fact, a lot of people say you shouldn't use the word purpose because it's been so discredited with a number of people using it just for marketing purposes, but you haven't done that. For you, it's a very serious commitment. But how are you going to sustain progress when it's no longer the shiny new thing?

Dame Alison Rose:

Well, firstly, I think it's important to remember it's a multi-year project and journey. Purpose is our strategy. It's not a marketing message. I think, Charles, one of the things you said to me when we started on this journey, "You should almost think it'll take a year for every layer," and I think that's true to really get it into the DNA of an organization. But at the heart of it it's about creating long-term value, and therefore these short-term pressures are, I think, a great test of purpose. Because if you revert immediately to the short-term issues... Now you've got to be agile because the world is very complex and there are short-term challenges that will come in. But I think purpose helps guide you much more clearly because you are able to react to the short term without compromising the long term. And that's often what you see organizations make mistakes on.

So for me, because it is strategic and not short term, I think it's really important we keep the focus on that and also make sure that we're measuring value over the long term and measuring the impact of the activities that you have. We can demonstrate that having that balanced outcome for customers, colleagues, shareholders, and communities, we can measure what we're doing and we can deal with uncertainty. So I think the big difference is if it was a marketing message, you could change your marketing message every year. If it's a long-term strategy, then you are measuring your long-term strategy and your outcome. And definitely for us it's strategic.

Charles Wookey:

It's interesting that you should use the word balance there. I remember in one of Blueprint's, early conferences, the Scottish academic John Kay spoke and he said, "The scales fell through my eyes as an academic economist when I realized it wasn't the job of a director of a company to maximize anything. It's their job to balance." And I just found that a very striking thought that if one moves away from the idea that it's just about maximizing a number to delivering, as you say, long-term value creation over time by making balance to decisions, I don't want to lead the witness here, but to what extent do you see yourself as making balanced decisions as opposed to maximizing a number? Is that a helpful thing to think about?

Dame Alison Rose:

Yeah, look, I think it is. I think the reality of any decision that we make, there are very few decisions I think that are in the yes or no category. I think 80% of the decisions you make, it's always a balance of different priorities. And particularly with the complexity of the impact of customers lives that we're working in and where they are in their life cycle, the decision you make for someone who is a student versus someone who is a retiree are very different, but it's a whole life cycle. But it is about balanced decisions. And for me, "Purpose is not about easy decisions," and being an "And" organization are probably the two phrases I use the most in our organization because if I maximize profits at the expense of something else, that will have an impact. Maybe not during my lifetime as a CEO, but in the lifetime of the organization and my customers lives, it will have an impact.

So I think it is balancing those decisions. And if you are balancing them with a long-term horizon, then I think ultimately you will make the right decision for the broader stakeholders that you're trying to support. And I also am very firm on the fact that purpose isn't at the expense of profits. We have to be a profitable organization in order to be able to support customers, colleagues, communities, and stakeholders. And my stakeholders and shareholders are looking for long-term value, so they wouldn't reward me for driving short-term profits and destroying the company in two or three years. So I think it's all about balance and trade-offs and smart decision making, and it's not one at the expense of the other.

Charles Wookey:

Yeah. And how have you thought about this and experienced your board in relation to this? Because having a board is helping you promote the business as a force for good with a public company and one as systemically important as yours is pretty crucial, I imagine. Have you found this shift from the old world, as it were, if I go back to the financial crisis kind of mentality of, "We're here to maximize profit and serve shareholders and that's the job," to actually, "No, we're here for a broader purpose in society, which includes delivering competitive returns to shareholders, but has this broader vision of what we're here to actually do in society." How has that worked for you? What's you been your experience from a governance's perspective of enabling your board to support this in the best way they can?

Dame Alison Rose:

Yeah, look, I think for the board, ESG is an important part of what we do. Making profits is an important part of what we do, building customer value. And the board's role, fundamentally, it's fiduciary duty is to create value over the long term. And so the board are incredibly supportive of purpose because they could see how it is very much an "And" and all linked together. And I think ESG and purpose are intrinsically linked together, so they create long-term value. So for the board, I think I can demonstrate the outcomes. Again, not a marketing message, a strategy supported by a framework, supported by clear decision-making framework and clear measures that we track, and therefore I can demonstrate to the board and creating value over the long-term. And I think that framework and that support to has been very helpful.

I mean, it's definitely an education process for everyone. It's been a bit of an education process for some shareholder groups, for some community groups. Individual groups want what's relevant for them, and making that balance is important. But I think that framework and the strategy about creating long-term value as a board director and the directors and the chairman of the company, generating a company that's going to be creating value for the long-term I think is what the board should be doing, and so that framework was very easy for them. And we did practical things, like it's embedded in all the remuneration policies and all the measures that myself and the other executive are tracked on. So we're held to account as well as delivering value and they can track it. So they've had to go on the journey as well with us as we've been doing it, but they've been incredibly supportive.

Charles Wookey:

So you mentioned there in that answer, the board's consideration of ESG measures and ways of assessing, from a governance point of view and a risk point of view, what investors would like to see. And there's such confusion out there, isn't there, around all these phrases that are knocking around purpose and EGS now, how do you answer the question? Are they the same thing? Are purpose and ESG two different ways of talking about the same thing? Is being purpose led different from just caring about ESG stuff? From just a common sense point of view, how do you think about those things in your mind?

Dame Alison Rose:

Yeah, I think ESG and purpose are intrinsically linked, but they are different.

Charles Wookey:

Yeah.

Dame Alison Rose:

So I think every large organization, everyone has ESG policies, which are important part of being well-governed and in contribution. But I think they're intrinsically linked with purpose, but not having an ESG policy isn't the same as being a purpose-led organization. But I think there's a strong overlap. And I think if I think about environmental policies, we have very clear environmental policies around what we can lend to, what we can't lend to, the different policies that we have, but that our climate strategy and our climate focus area, which is a core part of our purpose, is much, much broader than our environmental policy. So linked, but much more broad.

And if I think about RESG measures, it goes much further. So we have great governance frameworks, which are really important to be a well-governed organization, but we have broader measures that link to our purpose, which will create value long after I've left and my colleagues have handed over to others. So I think they're linked, but I don't think you could say ESG equals purpose or purpose equals ESG. I think it's a much broader impact.

Charles Wookey:

Thank you. So Alison, if we just think of, you've been leading the bank for just over three years on this purpose-led journey. I'd be curious to know something about your own learning from that experience. Is there anything you might have, when you look back now and said, "Actually, could have done that differently"? What have you learned, do you think, from your experience of running a bank in this direction?

Dame Alison Rose:

Yeah, I think many things. Of the things I've learned is no matter what plan you make, the plan will be different. That's probably the biggest journey.

Charles Wookey:

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Huge uncertainty.

Dame Alison Rose:

Huge. And I think that that is a key part of it, that there is massive uncertainty. The world is changing at an amazing pace. I mean, I think I said when I took over, the world is disrupting, and I meant technology. I didn't mean a global pandemic or war in Europe or the financial dislocation that's happening or distribution of wealth. So there are lots of different things. And I think for me, purpose is a very good way of defining long term and decision making and value.

And the simplest thing I've learned is the closer you stay to your customers, the deeper you understand their lives and that you recognize that you are in a long-term relationship with them, then that will guide your decision making. And if I reflect at banking, the further away you move away from your customers and the service you provide them, the further you move away from your colleagues and the life value that you're creating for them in terms of educational learning, and the more you became focused on singular things, the more short-term your decision making becomes because there are so many moving parts.

So I think having a clear purpose, thinking about the long term, and being agile enough to respond to what's happening in the world, but just remembering why you're there. We are there as a bank at a very simple level to serve customers the way through their lives, to unlock their potential of businesses and to deploy capital in a responsible way that will generate value for all. And I think if you go down to that very simple principle and talk to customers and talk to colleagues and understand what's going on, then that will give you most of the answers, I think.

Charles Wookey:

Great. Thank you very much. Well, Alison, I've been finishing these conversations by asking everybody the same two questions, so I've got two more if that's all right for you.

Dame Alison Rose:

Okay.

Charles Wookey:

So the first is, what advice would you have for an emerging leader who wants to run a purpose-led business?

Dame Alison Rose:

Well firstly, I would say you should absolutely do it. It's the right thing to do, and a very fulfilling way to lead your organization. But I think it will become increasingly important for businesses to have a sustainable purpose. I think expectations of companies, the changing demands of stakeholders, the requirements of colleagues or new joiners, is increasingly going to demand more of a positive contribution and much, much broader than just the singular make profits for a business. I think purpose-led organizations are about creating long-term value and sustainable contributions. I think it leads to more engaged employees. They feel that they can contribute more broadly. I think customers, more loyal customers, they want to feel that they're valued over the long term.

And I think your role that you play, I mean, as a leader, you now today are expected to have a view on lots of different things. What is your role on climate? What are you doing on diversity and inclusion? What is the purpose of your organization more broadly? I think it will give you a competitive advantage because it's creating long-term value. And I think fundamentally your role as a leader of an organization, but your role generally as a leader wherever you are in an organization, is to encourage and inspire people to grasp the opportunity to create value, to invest in people. And therefore, I think it's something that becomes even more of an imperative.

And so I think if it's something leaders are contemplating, I would say your role as a leader is to create long-term value, is to inspire. And your demands of your stakeholders will increasingly demand that. And I think in a world which I think is only going to continue to be more disruptive and more uncertain, having a purpose strategy and a purpose-led organization that can create long-term value will help you navigate those short-term pressures and help you in your decision making to create long-term value.

Charles Wookey:

Okay. Very good. And finally, just zooming right back to the broader economic system and obviously the bank are at the core of the financial sector in the UK. And so maybe in many ways it's an impossible question to answer, but if you had a magic wand and could change one thing in the economic system to help accelerate the just transition the world so desperately needs, what would that be?

Dame Alison Rose:

Gosh. Well I think to enable a just transition from a climate perspective and allow us to move all elements of society fairly and in a just way to a low carbon economy, which is what needs to happen globally to address the climate emergency, I think the easiest way to do that is to introduce carbon pricing. If I have my magic wand and could say we are all dealing with different data and different uncertainty, but this climate emergency is not going to go away. We need to ensure that the poorest members of society, developing nations, all move in a fair and equitable way. The only way we can do that is ensuring capital flows to the right places, but we also need to make sure that there is a cost of doing that. So let's put in place carbon pricing. We need to close the gap between the green premium, but we're doing what we can to help the households retrofit in the UK to make sure that the poorest members of society are not left behind.

But yeah, that's a long-winded answer to it. What's my one thing? I think a global carbon price and consistent data to enable us to make a just transition. And just transition is so important. And I think if you think about what I said about being purpose led, it's not about the easy decisions, it's about the hard decisions and it's about "And." We have to move to a net-zero economy. We have to address the carbon issues that we're facing, but it's an "And" decision. We can't just go, "Oil is bad, green is good." We have to help move the whole of the world to this new environment.

Charles Wookey:

Okay, well, Dame Allison Rose, thank you so much and thank you for your leadership too, of a purpose-led business putting into practice what you've been talking about. Very grateful to you for your time and wish you all the best for this year.

Dame Alison Rose:

Thank you. Cheers.

Charles Wookey:

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Blueprint for Better Business Podcast. To find out more about the charity, visit blueprintforbusiness.org or use the link in the show notes.